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# RalfSchülke Says:
September 10th, 2006 at 6:19 pm
Hi,
well Debian is a greade base and Ubuntu is a nice Distribution, but i miss ex. a Multimedia think ( codecs, decoder etc.) why not infestigate in this? The other bad think in a ubuntu world is K x u ande cp. version. why ? All in all in the linux world give to mutch Distributions to make the same, this is a killer for software futures and innovations. I go for 3j outside the linux worls , back to BeOS world and here came a new area to Operation Sytems and it is open source (not GPL), www.haiku-os.org , i think here a change to prefer a fast and clear OS, mybe it is better to thnik differnt and look outside from his self.
THX
Ralf Schülke
# jose hevia Says:
September 10th, 2006 at 7:55 pm
Hello, Mark. First I have to say that I love Ubuntu, I’m a student and used Debian until I discovered Ubuntu.
Debian was great as a developer-creator-programer but was so bad as a user(nightmare to install, to configure, to have a working place). I have to say thank you.
We are in a digital revolution, and I feel right now the same thing I used google for the first time some time ago(when nobody used it), something as good can’t last forever.
A lot of people would love to contribute economically, but you know what?, it’s difficult. Very little people uses credit cards but a lot of people buy music tones with the movile phone because it is so easy(and more difficult to cheat).
# sardaukar Says:
September 10th, 2006 at 8:34 pm
Debian and Ubuntu are on very edgy ground. On one side, key Debian developers join Ubuntu - on the other, developers at DebConf wear tshirts saying “囗囗囗囗 Ubuntu”…
I just hope both sides lighten up.
# trakz Says:
September 10th, 2006 at 9:36 pm
Look folks. This everyone needs to chill. Mark’s point is well taken. Debian and Ubuntu are pitched at very different audiences.
If you want to become a technical god, and invest your extraordinary skills to become an elite haxor: choose debian, and work within that community.
If you just want to use linux as a desktop, don’t really care about the technical challenges and are focused in other areas (i.e. not computer science related) choose ubuntu.
’nuff said.
# Chris Ward Says:
September 10th, 2006 at 10:29 pm
I watch AIX, and I watch Linux.
AIX, the ‘closed-source POSIX-compliant operating system’, gives you relatively low warranty cost (if you want a commercial warranty). Linux, the ‘open-source POSIX-compliant operating system’, gives you a higher warranty cost (if you want a commercial warranty from someone like IBM, on the same terms that IBM would sign an AIX warranty contract).
However, Linux gives you your ‘freedom to tinker’; you can get it to work on x86 CPUs, for example. And if you have no need for a commercial warranty, then Linux is just fine; probably more suitable, in fact.
# Nate Says:
September 10th, 2006 at 11:07 pm
Speaking for myself, Ubuntu is the first Debian distribution I’ve successfully used on my home PC, and it was the distribution that finally lured me away from RPM and to apt-get. I can’t see how the existence of Ubuntu can be anything but positive for Debian. Of course I’m blissfully unaware of Debian internal politics. I suppose I’d prefer it if there were just one distribution, a merged Debian/Ubuntu, but in the meantime, the more people who use Ubuntu on the desktop, the more people there are who would consider using Debian on the server, surely.
# Matthew Lange Says:
September 11th, 2006 at 4:49 am
The Ubuntu project needs Debian, and vice versa. It’s almost a symbionic relationship. Just because it isn’t one in the same doesn’t make it any less Open Source. Anything the Ubuntu project does can (and may) be merged right back into Debian.
In a perfect world, where the Mission and Vision statements, written and unwritten are the same, then there would be one entity. So long as there is any force pulling in any degree off from the path, there will be two. By performing the same work over and over, all we do is waste time, and we don’t ever get ahead of the technology.
By supporting each other in code and in deed, even if the two groups don’t see eye to eye on something, we can both (all) end up better off.
# Technofreak Says:
September 11th, 2006 at 5:41 am
Well said Mark, am proud to be a Ubuntero. This has been one issue I have been hearing and wondering why my leader hasn’t made a statement. Here came it at last and it was more than what i thought was necessary. The ‘Debian Vs Ubuntu’ idea should come to an end and ‘Debian, Ubuntu and all deb OSs’ should begin. How can the mother and the daughter throw stone on one another ? How can mother envy her own daughter getting a recognition and fame ? Will the daughter go without paying due respect to the mother from whom she originated. As a part of Ubuntu community, as our leader proposed, we all *respect* Debaian as much as we love Ubuntu. We very well undertsand that without Debian we wouldn’t be here, what we are today.
What we are trying to do is, use the skills that the mother thought to us and add our own efforts and make a better output from it. In this way, we are not placing orusleves as competitors for Debian, but rather one of the faces of the Debian-lead OSS community, which has a focus on bringing GNU/Linux into desktops and make even a non-computer-literate use GNU/Linux without any fuss. This way, we are actually making the credits and greatness of Debian reach the desktop base, while the mother Debian keeps concentrating at the more greater goals, offering a stable platform for us. Its like feed me once a day, i will work and feed 100 people.
Again am thankful to Mark for making it clear and known to everybody, what every Ubuntero thinks of Ubtuntu and Debian. Its not just Mark’s thoughts, but it represents the whole Ubuntu community. Hope the few Debians, who had been envying Ubuntu a bit on its success with desktops, understand Ubunteros and come forward to work parallely with one another and all deb OSes out there, to really bring Linux in to the lives oh Humanhood. Lets work together, but independently as well as coherently, to make what we call as ‘bug #1′ to get solved. We have a great community. We shouldn’t lose it at anytime, as it will affect out still higher cause for which we had been striving all these days.
What I propose is, under the chair of Debian, all other children like Ubuntu, Knoppix and all deb OSes sit together one day, and chalk out how they are going to make Linux reach the masses. As ubuntu has made it clear, it will continue to work to bring GNU/Linux to desktops, each deb OS should concentrate on a single user base and make it a success, which will thereby make Debian reach all the faces where Linux can be used. That is, indirectly the mother Debian through its children, will satisfy all falvors of customers, let it be desktops, servers, academics, corporate, embedded, etc etc. Hope this happens soon :)
# Xan Says:
September 11th, 2006 at 10:27 am
Another “problem” of debian is that developers don’t care and in some times flame the new propositions from users. For example, try to write to mailing list and propose that debian should change the web site design and follow the answers. What percentage are flames? What percentage discusses about your reasons for change it? 90% to 1%? Be polite please
In ubuntu, it does not happens. Always the answers to post are correct and discussions always try to give the possitive part of each post. This is why I added to ubuntu community rather than debian community.
Thanks,
Xan.
# 本日書籤 « penk - Keep on rockin’ in the free world Says:
September 11th, 2006 at 12:49 pm
[…] http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/56 […]
# David Gerard Says:
September 11th, 2006 at 1:42 pm
The biggest difference between the two is their attitude to newbies.
Newbie: “This bit is confusing and I can’t work out how to get it to work.”
Debian: “RTFM.”
Ubuntu: “We’d better fix that then.”
Those Debian people who are upset at Ubuntu’s popularity may benefit from contemplating the above.
Computers are still stupid and hard to use. Ubuntu is expressly aimed at people who aren’t geeks and don’t want to be geeks. This makes ALL the difference. I happily recommend it to people who aren’t geeks and don’t want to be geeks but are sick of Windows being flaky garbage. I would NEVER recommend Debian unless I was personally signing up to support their system.
Heck, I don’t even like Linux; I want to be running FreeBSD. Dealing with the Linux kernel makes my head hurt. But Debian and then Ubuntu have built a system on top of it that’s so nice I can almost forget there’s L*n*x at the bottom.
# Max Inflixion Says:
September 11th, 2006 at 3:40 pm
As a user who has toyed with Linux for a couple of years now, I wanted to give my two cents regarding an above post about the Debian community not needing a Project Manager.
I am of the opinion that the ENTIRE Linux community is in need of a defined leader at this time.
At a time when there are so many flavors of Linux available and so many new users testing the waters every day, the experience of these users MUST be a positive one. If the initial experience continues to be one of confusion (let’s face it, most people’s first foray into Linux ends abruptly), saturation in the market will stagnate.
Ubuntu seems to be the BEST distribution when it comes to making the first experience idiot proof. Yes, the colors may be a little funky, but IT WORKS. Toss in an hour with Automatix or EasyUbuntu, and IT REALLY WORKS!
I see this as a (perhaps THE) key to the Linux Movement gaining acceptance and market share.
No particular community or distro needs to be hijacked by an ambitious Project Manager. The community as a whole needs to rally around some commonality though, and at this time, Ubuntu seems to be the best candidate for a jumping off point.
# de mares, portos e portas » links for 2006-09-11 Says:
September 11th, 2006 at 4:22 pm
[…] Mark Shuttleworth » Blog Archive » Conflicting goals create tension in communities (tags: ubuntu shuttleworth debian) […]
# bolobot Says:
September 11th, 2006 at 8:18 pm
When Ubuntu first came out, I considered it debian with training wheels and scoffed. But, little by little I started seeing a lot of people who would have never gone beyond windows getting introduced to linux through ubuntu. Which is fantastic for the whole community, whether debian, slax, red hat or otherwise. The people with the “囗囗囗囗 Ubuntu” shirts are the ones that don’t get it. Or, maybe the are being uber-ironic leet. Who knows… I don’t, I completely lack a sense of the ironic ;-)
I still use debian for my server and my dual boot desktop and all the servers at work (except the ones where the hosting company only allows centos) but, hey, I broke down and installed kubuntu on a partition on my laptop. Why? Because, when it comes right down to it, for a lot of hardware issues, “it just works” (TM). When I switched from xfree to xorg - it was the kubuntu config file that got me pointed in the right direction. When my sound card wasn’t working when I upgraded to the 2.6.17 kernel - kubuntu once again gave me a clue to the problem… and the usb voip phone… etc. All, issues that I would never encounter on the web servers at work but are essential for a good everyday desktop experience. Beyond that, I’m finding that googling a lot of the desktop problems bring me to the ubuntu wiki.
I still wouldn’t use ubuntu for a server (although I know people who do) but I do recognize the value of it. Oh, and when I need a live cd I’ll reach for knoppix or backtrack…
But, when it comes to, “What linux distro would I give my mother to use?” Well, you figure it out :-)
# its about time» Blog Archive » links for 2006-09-10 Says:
September 11th, 2006 at 9:04 pm
[…] Mark Shuttleworth » Blog Archive » Conflicting goals create tension in communities (tags: ubuntu opensource community linux debian) […]
# Ubuntu could not exist without Debian « المعرفة للجميع Says:
September 11th, 2006 at 11:57 pm
[…] http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/56 […]
# DAR Says:
September 12th, 2006 at 12:57 am
>Consider Sid. Yes, it breaks your toys now and then, but by and large it represents an extraordinary achievement - pretty much the latest releases of the upstream communities, packaged and categorised. Nothing else, from Ubuntu or Red Hat or Novell (or Microsoft) comes anywhere close.
Ummm …. except maybe Arch Linux! :-)
# Joe Almeida Says:
September 12th, 2006 at 12:41 pm
I use neither Ubuntu nor Debian, but I have been a fan of Debian variants such as Knoppix. Mr. Shuttleworth is right when he says that it is necessary to prune projects to regain focus. With Ubuntu making it easier for newbies to run a Debian based distro, Debian itself can focus on the pure technical aspects of the system, and let Ubuntu worry about how it looks to the newbie. Lets remember something, Ubuntu may have enticed some developers away from Debian, but it was Ubuntu’s care for the newbie that created the huge following that it has. Debian had years to do that, but it never succeeded because it did not care about the newbie. Ubuntu does, thus it attracts all sorts of people to it. The popularity of Ubuntu was never available to Debian because of its lack of focus to the newbie. This all reminds me of the compalints that used book stores had of a Chapters, and that Chapters took away business from the used book stores. That’s not the case. The used books stores never thought of the end customer by doing a good job in organizing their collections, creating searchable catalogues, and giving space to readers in their venues. It turns out that Chapters found a large book reader market that was willing to buy new books, but wanted a smart way to shop - the used book stores never picked up on that - and that market was never available to them to draw upon. Debian and Ubuntu can work hand in hand. Debian needs to focus and let others pick up the slack.
# Todd Costa Says:
September 12th, 2006 at 4:01 pm
As a Debian fan and end user since 1998. I too, have come to a confidence level of Debian Stable being the one I recommend at the end of the day. I have been pushing out Ubuntu to a number of friends lately for a desktop solution that just works. I am glad for Debian based solutions like Ubuntu and Knoppix. It shows to me alot of creativity and vision for computer usage at its best along with the spirit of sharing solutions. Mr. Shuttleworth’s goals and vision along with Canonical’s drive are doing nice things with the Debian Base system for those who want choice.
I think Linux as a technology has gotten more press time because of Ubuntu. Because curiousity makes folks dig in and find out what’s going on because of all the talk.
Getting to a point I was thinking about. I am wondering if the debian/ubuntu said conflict is from that basic desire of being valued. I read and saw something from Ben H earlier in this blog that made me think further.
If the Ubuntu project is not pushing back changes to the debian maintainers or are not clearly documenting changes up to the Debian Project. This is a problem. In other words both sides are not properly collaborating and this would be a huge source of frustration at a personal level for thoses who participate among the projects. Eventually, it becomes an “us versus them”. Egos get hurt, feelings are elavated and tension rises everywhere. The next thing we know is that both projects go their seperate ways. Boy, I would hate to see that happen.
Clearly as humans we all fail to communicate effectively regardless the medium. So I ask, Could this be a source of stress? My gut says, Absolutely.
Surely, something is wrong if people are complaining. Something is a miss. Some basic need is not being met at the lowest level. If red-tape is involved than policies and procedures need to be look at seriously. Again something has changed and its not working for the projects. Common sense can go a long ways, as well as a good pat on the back. Simple acknowledgement is worth its weight in gold.
But if the DD and maintainers are being resistant. This again is a problem too. And that is even more complex for me to get into. My first question would be though. Is there resentment with DD?
But today, I can say that I appreciate the efforts of Mark S. and his willingness to spend his own resources in support of the free software movement. Hopefully, this can be worked out. Good Luck and thanks for the point of view.
# David MacIntosh Says:
September 14th, 2006 at 10:39 am
It’s smart to frame Ubuntu as the little high-reacher on the shoulder of a giant. It is true in every dispassionate sense and it is the general perception that will serve Ubuntu and Debian well as sovereigns in a mutually beneficial partnership. There is no need for chest thumping on either side; the successes of both are self-evident. Debian is a undeniable powerhouse — an evolving foundation upon which others can set root and attempt to service niche concerns. Ubuntu is responsive, accessible, and uniquely attractive. Debian would be hard pressed not to jeopardize the breadth and substantiality of its evolution if it attempted to service every transitive concern serviced by Ubuntu. Ubuntu’s organizational model and framework of existence are best suited to serve its needs; Debian’s vastly different architecture is best suited to serve its own. I see no issue here… only great promise.
# SOB: Scion Of Backronymics » Debian and Ubuntu founders: So what do THEY think? Says:
September 15th, 2006 at 8:50 am
[…] Ubuntu project founder Mark Shuttleworth has some things to say about the relationship between Ubuntu and Debian. In contrast with some of the less friendly statements made by enthusiasts on both sides of the Ubuntu/Debian divide, Shuttleworth expresses admiration for the Debian project, everything that it has accomplished, and the strong foundation it provides for Ubuntu. He also characterizes Ubuntu not as a competitor, but as a complement to Debian that targets OS market niches Debian does not — that it cannot, really, if it will continue to provide the strong OS foundation that it already does. […]
# Christopher Steffen Says:
September 18th, 2006 at 3:36 pm
It’s been stated again and again here, and I believe this is the most valid point:
Debian is the Sire, and all of its derivatives (Ubuntu, Linspire, Knoppix, Mepis) are the progeny.
There are bound to be fights, as in any family. But the one thing that should never change is respect and unity.
Debian should be proud and promote its progeny. “Debian is for the techno-elite. But if you’re new, try Ubuntu!”
Meanwhile, Debian’s progeny should support their Sire. “Hey, guys, remember that bug you kept having in Gnome with Debian? Well, we’ve fixed it here in Ubuntu. Here’s how, and here’s the source files you’ll need, along with changes and details. Enjoy!”
Cooperation and unity doesn’t mean mergers. Debian and Ubuntu can help each other out, cooperatively, without losing their individual dreams and goals.
I’ve never understood why the world must be so devided on things like this. I’ve been a proud Debian user for about a year now: I use Debian on my server and Ubuntu on my desktop. And I’ve been flirting with Mepis and other derivatives on my laptop.
A little friendly flaming - so long as it stays friendly - is understandable. But just remember, Linux is supposed to be fun!
# Michael Ahumibe Says:
September 23rd, 2006 at 9:47 pm
Ubuntu is good, and since it’s based on Debian then that must mean Debian is great. Please can both teams sort out their differences and remember that we’re both part of the Linux community.
# What’s wrong with long Debian release cycles? « Limulus Says:
September 27th, 2006 at 10:50 am
[…] Debian, the spring from which over a hundred Linux distributions flow, is well known for its slow release cycle. Hoping to speed it up, there’s a project called Dunc-tank which hopes to pay developers to work on Debian full time. This has however created friction within Debian, with calls for the removal of its leader. So I ask: why are long release cycles a bad thing? Why try to compete with Ubuntu, etc. rather than outsourcing to those distros the laborious task of creating frequent releases? Wouldn’t it be better to concentrate on a different goal, such as making sure the developers are enjoying working on Debian and not resentful of its offspring? Its not like Mark doesn’t love you ;) […]
